Preparing for a New Automotive Chapter

"LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com" (limitedtimeonly)
10/10/2019 at 15:23 • Filed to: I want to be an Overlander but let's get real, 4runner, Honda Passport, Subaru Outback, Outback, 2019 honda passport, Toyota 4Runner

I am shopping for a capable camping vehicle. The current contenders are the 2019 Honda Passport, 2020 Subaru Outback, and . . . . maybe a Toyota 4Runner.

The short story is that my reality is likely to be forest roads with mildly nasty ditches and gullies across the roads, divots/potholes/bumps/low rocks, and some odd terrain when parking at a campsite. My fantasy had been being able to tackle the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! someday expedition-style, and do OHV park type exploration. The odds of that are low in the foreseeable future for a variety of reasons, and should the opportunity arise, I’ll probably just need to then acquire a more robust expedition vehicle, because (spoiler alert) I’m not likely to get a 4Runner.

The Backstory

I have found that my competitive part of my personality has been overwhelming the fun aspects of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . I may or may not “retire” from autocross, but at the least I decided to go camping and hiking more, targeting once per month. I did go out in early August, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

I also went for a hike with my wife on Labor Day weekend. This involved driving on a forest road to the hike . . . and barely made it up one rutted gravel hill, denting my rocker panel in the process ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ).

I pointed out to my wife that this was why I had been wanting an SUV for camping and hiking trips, although I still wanted my GTI as a daily driver. I had been considering a less than $10,000 Toyota 4Runner as a third car, but my wife really doesn’t like the idea of a third car sitting around. (This !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! was part of the problem with my !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that some of you may remember.)

During the last week of September we took our annual fall vacation week of doing daily hikes in the Shining Rock Wilderness in Pisgah National Forest. After speaking during that time about my commitment to getting outdoors more, my wife understood how serious I was about this. As we drove home from our vacation she said that she would be okay with replacing her car with a 4Runner. I was very excited.

However, this radically changed what that vehicle would be. It would no longer be totally my toy, cheap enough to beat up, no big deal to modify for theoretical future overlanding trips that probably won’t happen. Instead, I quickly learned that the minimum expectations that she had were much higher than mine. In summary, she did not want to go “backwards” technologically from her 2014 Mazda3.

The Contenders

This new paradigm for SUV shopping meant that sitting in a 2019 4Runner Off-Road Premium (the car that I would have been delighted to buy new just a couple of weeks before) was disappointing to her because it did not have push button start or keyless entry. Or driver’s seat memory.

At least it had heated seats.

So it has become a question of 2019 Honda Passport vs. 2020 Subaru Outback vs. 2020 Toyota 4Runner.

Minimum Criteria

Our basic (combined) minimum criteria:

Keyless/door handle entry

Push button start

Heated front seats

About 77 inches from tailgate to front seat with fairly flat cargo floor (ruling out most 3 row SUVs) so that I can sleep in the car at trailheads if need be. This has the added benefit of enough room for luxurious tenting cargo for two humans and our canine god.

Rear HVAC vent for the canine.

All-wheel or four wheel drive

More than 7 inches of ground clearance.

Blind spot/rear-cross traffic alert (this one is kind of on the bubble as a requirement, but still a bit more than a strong preference).

We have a strong preference for a driver’s memory seat since we will swap out drivers on this car very regularly and have a 10 inch height difference. However, this is not a deal-breaker, as we have survived without for many years.

!!!CAPTION ERROR: MAY BE MULTI-LINE OR CONTAIN LINK!!!

2019 Honda Passport (EX-L, probably)

I have learned that the new !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , although apparently they can be re-calibrated after changes. Either way, it will be best to turn all of that stuff off when off the typical road . . . so it would be good to have an easy way to do this. From what I can tell, the Honda Passport has a bunch of buttons to the left of the steering column to do this, and I hope that they are comprehensive.

For off-road capability, I’m tempted to base this on ride height. However, there is a concern about approach and departure angles, as well as breakover angles. Some forest roads have steep ditches or crests, and some pull-offs for camping spots have ditches in the way, and I’d like to increase my options.

The 2019 Honda Passport has a very good claimed 8.1 inches of ground clearance, 21.4 degree approach angle, 27.7 degree departure angle, and 17.3 degree breakover angle. It is 78.6 inches wide.

It has an annoying push button gear selector, but has physical HVAC control. It appears to have a very good AWD system with four settings (including normal) that apparently will work while blasting along forest roads at speed, but no hill-descent control. The styling is bland. It comes with ridiculous 20-inch wheels with low-profile tires, and I’ve already told my wife that part of the potential purchase price will be acquiring 18 inch wheels and associated tires . . . like the Pilot comes with, and these are the same vehicle, basically. This might resolve the slightly stiff ride some reviewers mention (Honda really should offer an optional wheel package). Room inside is good, nice V6 engine, and decent approach and departure angles.

2020 Subaru Outback Onyx XT with aftermarket wheels. Swiped from user “bartomoleo” on SubaruOutback.org

2020 Subaru Outback (Onyx XT, probably)

The 2020 Subaru Outback has a generous claimed 8.7 inches of clearance, but worst in my list 18.6 degree approach angle, 21.7 degree departure angle. Good 19.4 degree breakover angle. It is 73 inches wide.

The Outback also has a fancy traction control system called X-Mode, with a special version on the Onyx models that has TWO modes of X-mode. It does have hill-descent control. The X-mode only works under 25 mph, it seems. Edmunds claims in the list of features that the Onyx XT doesn’t have rear HVAC vent, but I thought when I looked at one on the lot that it did (base model doesn’t). If it doesn’t, then the Onyx fails to meet the minimum criteria

No trim offers rain sensing wipers, even while is has high beam light assist, lane-keeping, etc., which I find disappointing. But I would get over it.

Also, the Onyx has “StarTex” urethane seat cover material, and one or two early forum users say that this material may make one sweaty in warm weather. Sweatier than leather/fake leather in similar conditions? I’ll have to see what me and the wife think of them in person, they could be great for us, actually. Also, apparently the navigation function isn’t the greatest, but also is avoidable with Google maps or Waze on a connected phone.

We could bump up to a Limited XT, but then it would lose a bit of the offroading features and the “StarTex” upholstery, but also the blacked out wheels, which I could do without anyway.

All the road-keeping tech is supposed to work better in the Subie than in the Passport, but that’s not critical for me.

The Outback should be a clear winner with fuel economy, but I have heard that real-world is often lower. I’m a bit nervous about Subaru quality, and I don’t like that the HVAC is mostly via screen with few physical buttons. I’m really disappointed by how far out the nose extends, significantly affecting how fast I can go through rough roads. But it should handle the best.

Recent fifth generation Toyota 4Runner living the dream. Image swiped from user “jafrush” on toyota-4runner.org

2020 (or 2019?) Toyota 4Runner (TRD Off-Road Premium, maybe?)

This is what started me down this road. I wanted to have the option to off-road with Jeep-like challenges. But that capability comes with a lack of . . . a lot of things.

The 2020 Toyota 4Runner has 9.6 inches of ground clearance, 33 degree approach angle, 26 degree departure angle, no claimed breakover angle. It is 75.8 inches wide.

It also drives like a truck. I kind of miss that from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but it is not a benefit in urban driving when I regularly have to do quick lane changes or stops due to fellow road warriors.

It is long enough to sleep inside - lots of people do. But it is made more difficult by the bottom cushions of the rear seats needing to flip forward to lay the seatbacks flat. Those bottom cushions then limit the length of flat space to less than my preference. This can be avoided by removing one side - I only need to take out two bolts. We could do that as we rarely transport humans in the back, but it isn’t ideal.

For some reason, even though Toyota can equip the 2020 4Runners with all of the active road-keeping technology, they otherwise haven’t updated the truck in 10-years, really. Next generation is supposed to be coming in 2022.

This means only the Limited comes with many of the features on our requirements list, but without the reasonable wheels and locking diff, etc., that come on the TRD Off-Road Premium, kind of defeating the purpose of getting one. A 2020 versus 2019 does add push button start across all models, and I think door handle unlock. It also means the the tried-and-true, reliable engine and transmission combo are ancient, and along with the cool styling, combine to return fuel economy on a par with my old 4.0L Ranger. Which, at the end of it’s life, I hated it’s fuel guzzling ways. (I know, it could be worse, but, still.)

(I considered used options, since these are basically unchanged, but used examples lack the key comfort features, and apparently are plated with gold somewhere on the frame. Very pricey for condition/miles.)

Where I stand with all of this

The Outback is likely the best handling and most fuel-efficient, but I’m worried about quality and actual capability on rough roads. It’s also new on lots, so not likely to be discounted much.

The Passport may actually be the most down-the-middle with smart AWD, okay fuel economy, slightly better approach and departure angles, but it’s almost too big, especially at the point where I have to park it in an urban parking deck or take it down a narrow access road. And while it appears to be heavily discounted right now, bringing the likely price out the door of an EX-L in line with an Outback Onyx XT, I then would spend $1,500-$2,000 on wheels and tires to get started.

The 4Runner is cool, but basically old and inefficient on space and fuel. While I like the potential it gives me, the reality is that 95% of the time it would be ill-suited to it’s daily chores. I still want it, which is why Toyota can get away with packaging and pricing it the way it does. The pricing is high, although if we gave up even more items on our required list, we could be in a 2019 for maybe a good price as they are clearing them out.

So, the plan is to test drive all three with my wife this weekend, back-to-back. This will likely rule out the 4Runner finally and hopefully clarify Passport or Outback, which I flip back and forth on almost daily.

Any constructive input is welcome. To be continued (doggo for your time).

Image source: Me. Dented rocker panel on the GTI, one needs to be looking for it to see it normally.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

DISCUSSION (47)

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 15:42

“ Keyless/door handle entry

Push button start”

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

vicali > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
10/10/2019 at 15:43

I hate ours on the Tacoma. I turned the ‘BEEP’ way up, and keep my keys in a tin can.. #NoCoFL..

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
10/10/2019 at 15:46

Our vehicles live in a garage at home (I’m sure a determined thief would somehow clone the door signal, but they are liekly to find easier pcikings elsewhere) . Trust me, I took your experience as highly cautionary, and would get a Faraday bag otherwise.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 15:53

The answer is Telarude ... Telluride.

I always read it as Tell-a-rude. Damn dyslexia .

Of the three you’re considering I’d go with the Honda.

Textured Soy Protein > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 15:53

Have you looked at the Jeep Cherokee, especially the Trailhawk? As a regular, putz-around-town crossover there are plenty of better choices. But it does have more off road cred than the typical crossover.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 15:55

Very interested to see the outcome of this.

vicali > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 15:56

Have you looked at Highlanders? Seeing as 4Runners are not meeting your creature comfort requirements is a bit of a flag..

Oppos also be quick to recommend GX or LX ftw - but it’s not quite the same as 2020 models..

My wife dailys a Forester, it did us very well over gravel roads, and snow, and everything a normal car does.. We only turned around a few times with the Subaru when the road got sketchy..

Now in the Tacoma I don’t turn around.. or think about road conditions much at all.. it goes everywhere..

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
10/10/2019 at 15:57

I think that vehicle looks very cool. But it’s a 3 row, if I’m not mistaken, and thus unlikely to facilitate requirement #4 with a flat sleeping area.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein
10/10/2019 at 15:57

Too small to satisfy requirement #4. Same with the Grand Cherokee, surprisingly.

B_dol > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:01

Passport or 4Runner gets my vote - I have found the Subaru abysmal to drive and it feels the least rugged and capable of the three.

I would also suggest you actively start doing said activities (hiking, camping, glamping, etc.) for a while before you purchase a car to suit that lifestyle. Just saying... things can loose their luster quickly. Most trail heads can also be reached in more comfortable, more affordable commuter cars.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > vicali
10/10/2019 at 16:03

I haven’t considered Highlanders. I think that I ruled them out early as 3-row that would not be good for sleeping inside, but I may have to revisit.

I did very seriously consider Lexus GX470 and GX 460's but these have the seats mounted above the floor, causing sleeping platform issues. Plus, they are very fuel inefficient, the rear vent is in the ceiling far away from doggo, they kind of have TOO much comfort stuff, and I have very mixed feelings about the swingout rear door.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > B_dol
10/10/2019 at 16:08

Oh, we are and have been camping and hiking for years. Very appropriate point, however, I fully agree with your point about actually doing the activity prior to changing the vehicle.

The difference now is that I’m taking my autocross energy and putting it into doing MORE camping, and want a vehicle that is less limiting. See above picture of dented GTI.

Plus I no longer am backpacking, so more gear is okay, but that requires more room.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:10

I would expect even a 3 row to fold completely flat. Really any modern suv/wagon should have fold flat seats. I’m making an assumption tho.

nj959 > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:12

CPO V90CC?

Kinja'd!!!

B_dol > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:13

Well then step right up! Somewhat related anecdote - local guy parks on the trailhead with his Ferrari GTC4 lusso, props to them.

The Toyota is certainly a dated platform but hot damn if they haven’t figured out reliability, durability and convenience in features. A loaded TRD version is not necessary and the lesser trim may save some cash for racks/mounts/etc. The Honda passport does seem to be the new kid on the block and a future jalop candidate.

Given the way interest rates are moving (and depreciation on these cars!) I would say new is best. Snag a warrant, negotiate a hefty sum off MSRP and a low interest rate while they last.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
10/10/2019 at 16:14

Definitely not the case with the Mazda CX-9 or the Lexus GX, from what I’ve seen. I may need to investigate others.

Oh, and as an aside, the 4Runner 3 row bumps up the floor by 4 inches!

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > nj959
10/10/2019 at 16:16

Huh. Could be a contender, although it is more pricey. I’ll have to consider it.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:19

The Ford Flex’s 3rd row folds flat. Not a very good over lander tho. The Telluride’s look decently flat. You’d need something to fill the void in the middle row tho, but a cooler and suit case would do that just fine.

Kinja'd!!!

nermal > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:19

Everybody else is wrong. You need a new Power Wagon.

Fits all of your requirements. Keyless entry / push button start. Off road stuff. Has a winch, which you didn’t say you need, but since it’s something you might need, you totally need it . Something in your blind spot? Screw it, just run it over. Plus, i t’s a truck, so the dog will like it.

(All dogs like trucks. People that drive Subarus may think that their dogs like their Subaru, but in reality Subaru dogs think their owners are deficient for not owning a truck.)

You can pretty much ignore the MSRP listed for them since there’s like $10k in rebates & discounting built into it like all new trucks. Your friendly neighborhood FCA dealer will be able to arrange a 96 month loan to meet your monthly payment goals as well.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
10/10/2019 at 16:20

Darn, it looks like the Telluride is a 3-row, without a flat cargo floor to the front seats (2nd row bucket seats), similar to what I saw in the CX-9.

DasWauto > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:20

I tried an O utback XT (Outdoor trim, same as Onyx in the US) and found it quite lovely. Very smooth drivetrain and ride . I liked the seat material, it’s much softer than other leather alternatives I’ve felt, I could see it getting hot but I would guess it’s better than most as the material isn’t black - YMMV. The driver assists are indeed good, mostly unobtrusive, though my experience with those sorts of systems is limited.

I think any of the vehicles you’re considering will do well for your purposes but I’d lean toward the Subaru.

/FWIW, and this may bias my recommendation, I haven’t had any issues with the turbocharged, direct injected Subaru I bought new in 2016.

nj959 > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:21

Late model XC70s are also good if your willing to forgo a warranty for a cheaper car. Carmax has a fully loaded one that looks pretty much perfect although the price is high (as usual with them).

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:21

Best looking by far.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
10/10/2019 at 16:23

Looks like the base Telluride LX might have a 2nd row bench seat, but is missing some of the features on our list, and would have a footwell for the 3rd row.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > nermal
10/10/2019 at 16:27

Ha! Love it.

Nothing > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:30

By “rear vent” do you mean in the second row or cargo area? I can’t imagine many 2 rows having cargo area hvac, and even my third row 4Runner lacks 3rd row heat/air.

As you know, while you could save money on by getting a 2019, it’s the 2020 that now comes with more of what you would like. The 4Runner is also firmly in the truck category for everything else. One thing I really dislike is the lack of interior storage compartments (underseat, under floor in the cargo, etc). I really like mine, overall. Comfy for my son, swallows a lot of gear (even with the third row eating up some height), and my dog loves riding with the rear window down.

There’s still part of me that thinks....hmm, I could’ve saved $15k and bought a TourX to handle 95% of what I do.

Under_Score > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:35

Get a Pilot instead. Probably a much better car than the Passport honestly.

HammerheadFistpunch > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:38

So the Passport can be made to do some pretty stupid stuff, but like anything, the more you mod, the worse it gets. Check out Jon DZ adventuring for some good beta on this route.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp4229KnkoC3zrrLBL362BA

He also has some strong feelings about Subaru’s and the CVT transmissions as his previous car was a Forester. He’s very active on the channel and will happily respond to questions.

Me personally? If you are shopping with new car money...why not a used Lexus GX? 2015 models have everything you are looking for (2015 is the first year of the more advanced safety features) and you can get them with low miles for ~30-40. Which is about where you are looking in terms of price. Mileage sucks though

HammerheadFistpunch > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:38

So the Passport can be made to do some pretty stupid stuff, but like anything, the more you mod, the worse it gets. Check out JonDZ adventuring for some good beta on this route.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp4229KnkoC3zrrLBL362BA

He also has some strong feelings about Subaru’s and the CVT transmissions as his previous car was a Forester. He’s very active on the channel and will happily respond to questions.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:39

There’s an answer for when autocross becomes more competitive and less fun: club racing. All the competition you can handle, and orders of magnitude more fun spread out over a couple of hours of seat time per weekend. Of course, it is also expensive, the racecar is a disposable tool used to have fun, and you need a tow vehicle to get it there (can be used for camping, too). But it is the most fun thing I’ve done.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Nothing
10/10/2019 at 16:40

Vent for the 2nd row. Not all vehicles offer that, especially when looking at 2 row crossovers.

I’ve appreciated your thoughts on your 4Runner previously. It is possible that we could do with a wagon variant (including the Volvo V90CC or the TourX) but I just remembered that my wife previously vetoed wagons, unfortunately.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > nj959
10/10/2019 at 16:40

I just remembered that my wife previously vetoed wagons, unfortunately. Totally based on appearance. Somehow the Outback is not a wagon to her.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > HammerheadFistpunch
10/10/2019 at 16:46

I’ll take a look at that link, thanks.

Have looked at the GX, it’s a good option. Still pricey used, if not as bad as used 4Runners. But these have the seats mounted above the floor, causing sleeping platform issues. As you say, they are very fuel inefficient. Other less critical issues are that t he rear vent is in the ceiling far away from doggo, they kind of have TOO much comfort stuff, and I have very mixed feelings about the swingout rear door.

HammerheadFistpunch > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 16:47

They aren’t the best in your categories, but I will tell you that the Lexus experience spoils and you will be surprised how capable they are stock.

Dusty Ventures > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 17:18

I know the Outback has had vents for the rear seats located on the backside of the center console since at least 2014 (EDIT: first offered in 2013) . I can’t imagine they removed them in the new model

Kinja'd!!!

someoneatacura > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 17:19

If you drop the stock honda wheels to 17 inch, a lot of AT tire options open up. I confirmed on tirerack that a 17inch alloy wheel (not steel) will clear, so you should be good to go with that.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Dusty Ventures
10/10/2019 at 17:23

Not on all trim level s, it seems. As I say, the 2020 doesn’t have them for the base model (which seems silly to me) .

I thought that I hadn’t seen them in 2019s, but I trust that you are correct on that.

Poor_Sh > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 18:35

May I suggest the humble...

Kinja'd!!!

Porsche Cayman?

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Poor_Sh
10/10/2019 at 18:39

Sounds good! However, I refer you to the photo of my dented rocker panel.

Poor_Sh > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 19:12

Ok, ok, ok...

Kinja'd!!!

R ally Cayman.

nj959 > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/10/2019 at 19:54

Ah that’s a shame. XC60s are mostly the same thing and are probably easier to find anyway, though I don’t know if they’re quite long enough (especially if a Grand Cherokee isn’t).

I think the only responsible thing to do now is to full send an out of warranty Range Rover. What could go wrong?

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > nj959
10/10/2019 at 20:50

I have looked at the LR4. I drove on e new in an off road course and had fun. What could go wrong indeed . . .

adamftw > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/11/2019 at 10:38

LR3s and LR4s are both pretty damn reliable. Only big thing to watch for is the timing chain issue in the early LR4 V8s. $1800-2200 fix. Everything besides that is maintenance.

adamftw > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
10/11/2019 at 10:41

Based on your needs, I agree with you. Test drive the Passport and the Scoobys and pick, you can’t go wrong. You’ll appreciate the MPG and comfort, and you don’t need the bigger/badder of a body on frame 4x4.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > adamftw
10/11/2019 at 14:47

Well, the air suspension is a pricey and weak point, too. And the electronics are reportedly still not the greatest. And the the engine is thirsty. But it is a nice vehicle. I’d be a bit embarrassed by the fancy brand name, but it is plenty capable, likely more than I need, and certainly more expensive.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > vicali
10/11/2019 at 15:34

It looks like both the Highlander and the VW Atlas offer the desired amenities with a flat cargo area that looks sleep-worthy. I mentioned this to my wife and she resisted adding them to the list. While I might hesitate based on them not being known for managing rough roads (not that they couldn’t do it), I think she is hesitating because she doesn’t want a mommy-car-3-row, but also because she doesn’t want the list to expand, she wants it to narrow!

Unfortunately for her, I like shopping for cars. I’m sure that Oppo is shocked, shocked by an Oppo liking to shop for cars.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein
10/11/2019 at 15:37

I just inspected my neighbor’s Grand Cherokee, and it is okay for sleeping in, with 72 inches from the rear door to the center console. Then I read online reviews about the slow acceleration and numb steering, saw the not great fuel economy, and priced out a Trailhawk with option packages as appropriate as being many thousands more than the others I’m thinking of. So I don’t think it is going on the list. Maybe if we have energy tomorrow, we’ll take a look, but I doubt it.